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Hosted by Kevin Brant
Site Usage
European Union
Joined: September 28, 2004
KitMaker: 2,149 posts
AeroScale: 1,581 posts
Posted: Wednesday, February 28, 2018 - 06:48 PM UTC

Quoted Text

What do you think that Facebook, YouTube ... will do once they know they have an almost monopoly?

Or should you invest in kitmaker itself, make it actively evolve and offer the community some value the impersonal big three can't provide?

As reply to my own question, maybe of interest:


New York, United States
Joined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 9,535 posts
AeroScale: 7,300 posts
Posted: Sunday, February 18, 2018 - 09:51 PM UTC
I'm a little late to responding to this thread as I really don't frequent this forum of Aeroscale often enough.

I can understand where Darren's coming from in respect to Armorama. When I 1st got back into modeling, I was building Armor only: Shermans to be more specific, and posting my work as I do here. Back then my work wasn't exactly cutting edge, nor all that good in respects to the basics. I did find certain list members pointing that out in a less then respectful way. But I learned from that experience.

When I made the move back to aircraft and came here, it was a whole different world. Everyone was extremely nice, and supportive. While that's a big plus for the site, in reality, it doesn't help any modeler get better by telling them that their work looks great when in fact there are issues with the basics. I have no quams about OOB builds, as my builds are mostly that. But pointing out in a POSITIVE MANNER errors in basics, is with the intent to help that builder reach what many of us feel is the proper basic level.

To say that members only want to hear praise for their builds just makes no sense to me. The truth is that when you post your work here, your offering it up to comparison like builds. Pointing out non-corrected kit details for OOB builds is meaningless, but pointing the wrong color by not doing basic online research including a few kit reviews, is a useful criticism.

Example in point: Early F4U-1 where the interior of the wheel wells, cowling, fuselage except the cockpit are painted in Interior Green or either shade of ZC. The correct color is Salmon. Pointing out such errors might not help the modeler with the current build, but is useful information to the builder and everyone else that might be contemplating that build and not have known that. Most instructions I've seen are wrong.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Aeroscale is more then a community, it's a learning site as well. To learn and grow, those had that information and corrections for that level of build should present that in a constructive manner.

To suggest that only positively and thumbs up should be posted, just isn't helpful, and honestly would get extremely boring to those builders who are looking to improve, and honestly look at their work level as a hobby in progress.

I completely agree with what Drabslab said to a tee. I've made suggestions both publically and privately, and to be blunt about it, none have ever been implemented. To feel that Aeroscale is so perfect that it doesn't need tweeking every now then, just isn't the case. The Gallery is a perfect example. I haven't bothered to use it other then for the mandatory two finished pictures for a campaign. it's about as convoluted a process to post as one can think of, and this has been the case since I 1st joined.

So to those modelers that just want to post their work, and rather not have any criticisms offered, there is the Pre-Flight Check forum. May I suggest that it be made as a non-critique forum here, and that would give everyone a place to post regardless of there skill level nor their personal building goals.

Lisboa, Portugal
Joined: August 27, 2010
KitMaker: 648 posts
AeroScale: 639 posts
Posted: Saturday, December 30, 2017 - 02:43 AM UTC
I also agree with Drab statements regarding this website user friendliness when it comes to upload posts or storing capacity. Although this hasnít hampered me from posting it has however curbed me from doing more, namely a more detailed build of whatever kit I find more interesting. It simply is too much time consuming to do such a task, when all I can have is around 3 hours week for the hobby.
A simpler, direct upload of photos would improve a lot the time consumed for this task.

Regarding Darrenís message, I feel that feedback is crucial to anyone who takes the time and guts to present their work here, otherwise why bother, right!??
This means that honest opinions should not be taken for insults, no 2 people see the model the same way, regardless (or not) of their skills.

That said, carry on Aeroscale!

Happy new year folks!
Ontario, Canada
Joined: February 04, 2008
KitMaker: 2,396 posts
AeroScale: 1,814 posts
Posted: Saturday, December 30, 2017 - 01:18 AM UTC
Well said Drabslab!
European Union
Joined: September 28, 2004
KitMaker: 2,149 posts
AeroScale: 1,581 posts
Posted: Saturday, December 30, 2017 - 01:00 AM UTC

First I want to thank Darren for writing this, and SGTRam for brining it under Aeroscale attention. It's a brave posting and although I never was confronted with very rude statements on the forum, it touches upon important things such as mutual respect.

However, that does not mean that I totally agree with the content of the message. For instance, respect goes in all directions; not only user to user; and user to site; but also site to users.

I dare so say that I ha(d)ve some expertise in designing and maintaining internet sites, I have been studying it professionally for quite some time. Over the years I launched many ideas on how things could be improved here, I hardly ever got any reply back, never mind that much of my suggestions were ever implemented. I don't claim here that someone should feel obliged to do what I tell them to do, but maybe a simple "thank you, we will think about it" would not cost too much?

Otherwise, I am convinced that the technological stand still of this site compared to the fast evolution of the internet is an important reason for people disappearing.

The gallery problem is there for at least 10 years, the subscriber status grants someone a whopping 50mb of picture space in a world where one gets a few terabytes for the kitmaker subscriber price. And these are only a few examples.

Finally, Twitter, Facebook and YouTube are the competition, and not the sites best friend. Maybe it delivers some quick gains, but you really want to sell out your members to those big sharks?

I warned quite some time ago that the site not owning the pictures but counting on the likes of photobucket would one day come at a high cost, guess what...

What do you think that Facebook, YouTube ... will do once they know they have an almost monopoly?

Or should you invest in kitmaker itself, make it actively evolve and offer the community some value the impersonal big three can't provide?

About community: why is there no regular blog from the kitmaker leadership to explain what is about to be improved?

Aeroscale was one of the discoveries that brought me back to building and I care for it. This is the only reason for this, maybe too long, response. I hope it provokes some positive thought.

If I offended someone in the process, my apologies, this was not the intention.

Happy building in 2018

Staff MemberSenior Editor
United Kingdom
Joined: June 11, 2003
KitMaker: 17,193 posts
AeroScale: 12,621 posts
Posted: Saturday, December 30, 2017 - 12:36 AM UTC
Hi all

Thankfully, aggressive posting isn't a problem we've ever suffered from on Aeroscale.

The credit for laying the groundwork for what has often been described as being among the most friendly and helpful modelling communities on the Internet must undoubtedly go to Bryan Dewberry when he ran the aircraft side of the original Armorama. When he stepped down, I simply tried to maintain the standard he set, and in over twelve years at the helm I don't think I ever had to caution anyone for their behaviour in the Forum. I don't know if that's actually a record for a similar community, but I was always hugely impressed by the attitude of the overriding majority of our members.

Perhaps it's because we've frequently attracted refugees from other more "abrasive" (shall we say) aircraft modelling sites - I fell into that category myself when I first joined - and even some notorious characters who were banned elsewhere somehow moderated their behaviour here (to such an extent that the most serious complaints usually levelled against them were that they were only being inaccurate or just terminally boring in some of their posts! LOL!).

Ironically, at times, it has even been suggested that we're in danger of being too nice and uncritical(!), and that a few more controversial threads would help boost activity. But I must say I've always been happy to err the other way and felt very lucky to represent such a great community during my tenure.

Long may that continue, and here's wishing everyone a Happy New Year and looking forward to some great modelling in 2018!

All the best

Ontario, Canada
Joined: October 11, 2011
KitMaker: 704 posts
AeroScale: 405 posts
Posted: Friday, December 29, 2017 - 10:55 PM UTC
I whole heartily agree. I think that is one reason why I have not been posting my builds as they are not up yo some of the creations from builders. I am in this hobby for the fun of it, not to be critisized by other builders. Helpful suggestions and hints but not nasty criticisms. If all members kept harsh remarks out of their posts more people would be posting their builds.
Staff MemberCampaigns Administrator
Colorado, United States
Joined: January 19, 2008
KitMaker: 3,320 posts
AeroScale: 2,398 posts
Posted: Friday, December 29, 2017 - 10:28 PM UTC
Thanks, Kevin! I firmly agree that this is a community, and communities include lots of different people. Folks build models for lots of different reasons, and not everyone is a detail or accuracy freak, nor is everyone here at the same level of experience. And frankly, not everyone WANTS to build at the level that some of our members have achieved. That doesn't mean that all aren't welcome, I'm always glad to see all kinds of modelers here, it's what makes the hobby continue to grow!

For those who don't feel like clicking on the link, here's Darren's post on Armorama:

"Ladies and Gents one of the reasons sites like this falter in terms of participation is the way we pick on someone or a group that make a statement that is known to be wrong or contentious. If you do want to get to a stage where everyone fears to post because of the concern about being shouted down then carry on, and yes I do know we have all done it. So come on try treating those engaged in the hobby you all claim to enjoy with a modicum of respect and see if we can turn things around and get members posting again please. A quick read of forum posts highlight this issue quite quickly; however I also noted that some get bent out of shape due to a perceived insult that was not there.

"I have been here in one form or another for many years and seen the decline of members willing to post their work, I believe in many cases due to concern over being attacked for it. I have also seen quite a few here attack members for their efforts who have themselves never shown their own efforts that I could find. I know we have issues with the gallery and how images are difficult to upload and use, this is something Jim is trying to resolve due to the feedback from me and others, but finding a cost effective solution is not easy.

"In order to increase the enjoyment of the forums we are looking at making the participation of our Twitter and Facebook members easier while also looking into YouTube members being able to participate in the forums quickly and easily with their content and so attract fans who may find it hard to find what they are looking for and also provide a one stop look across a large section of model related content.

"So my reason for this post is to request that all of our members consider the effect their responses may have and to reconsider their stance on not posting in the forums, after all you can only get great things out of the forums if you are willing to put additions into the forums.

"Lastly Armorama and the KitMaker Network hope you all have a great and productive 2018."

So, model on everyone, and here's looking forward to a great 2018 here on AeroScale and KitMaker!

Staff MemberEditor-in-Chief
Ontario, Canada
Joined: March 06, 2011
KitMaker: 3,914 posts
AeroScale: 481 posts
Posted: Friday, December 29, 2017 - 09:49 PM UTC
I wanted to make this post from Darren Baker, Editor-in-Chief from Armorama, available for those that only browse AeroScale. I totally agree with Darren's observation and would like to reiterate it for AeroScale.


To add to this, I would like to know what you as site users would like to see as we move into a New Year, and hope to improve the site. Please let me know if you would like to see something on the site.

Kevin Brant